9 replies to this topic

[clash]

Having read a lot of the posts on this site it reminds me more and more of a ) a Republican propaganda site or b ) a Loyalist propaganda site in many of the posts disregard for reality.

1. The Uí Neills killed/persecuted/defeated/whatever your ancestors and made them move to Scotland ?

The Ulaid (inhabitants of Ulster your talking about) were as Celtic as the Uí Neills, they have decendants in large parts of Ireland today, like the Déise (Not a family name) of Waterford. They spoke a Celtic language (allbeit a different branch from the language gaelic developed from) and they followed Celtic traditions and culture.

The Uí Neills and other Gaelic (Celtic tribes in Ireland) colonised Scotland and intermingled/defeated the earlier Celtic tribe the Picts. Scotland was as gaelic as the rest of Ireland, the Scottish language (Ghàidhlig) developed from what is known (incorrectly or not) as "Old" Irish. (The Gaelic language spoken in Ireland which itself developed from a branch of Celtic).

I think the simple fact here is that;
a ) The Ulaid were Celtic, Celtic tribes fought against eachother all the time.
b ) Contrary to people heres claims you have more of a chance of being a decendant of other Celtic tribes including the Uí Neills then of the Ulaid since a huge number of these tribes moved to Scotland.

2. The use of the red hand on this sites logo and trying to link it with the Ulaid.

The red hand is a symbol of the Uí Neills. First you say the Uí Neills persecuted your ancestors and yet your using their symbol ?

And by the way, the legend surrounding the red hand says that when O'Neill became King of Ulster the other people there moved west not east and the other people were under and acceptance of the High King of Ireland.

[Irish_gallowglass]

That is something I find very interesting with the modern loyalist/unionist. They seem forget where the symbols come from

[Kilsally]

The Red Hand of Ulster
The ancient symbol of Ulster is the red hand. There are several versions as to the true origins of this symbol.
The first version involves a race between two ships carrying one of the many peoples to invade Ireland. The captains of two ships had a wager that the first to set his hand on the land would own it. One of the captains, seeing he was going to lose cut off his right hand and threw it to the shore winning the wager.
The second version has a biblical reference (Genesis 38 v 28-30) to back the story up and involves Zareh and Pharez, the sons of Judah, the fourth son of Jacob. During their birthing, Zareh's hand protruded first and the midwife tied a scarlet cord around the hand to identify the firstborn. But Zareh drew back his hand and his brother Pharez came out first. Zareh's descendents were therefore disinherited and left the other tribes ending up eventually Ireland and legend tells they developed the first kingdom of Ulster in 1480 BC. The two heraldic symbols were the red hand with scarlet cord (Zareh) and the red lion rampant (Judah), one used by Ulster today, the other by Scotland.

Cuchulainn - the Hound of Ulster
The oldest story in western European history is that of Cuchulainn, the hound of Ulster. Legend has it that the young Cruithin warrior, Setanta killed the hound of the Ulaid lord Chulainn. Setanta took the name Cuchulainn and became his 'hound'. Cuchulainn became the war leader of the Knights of the Red Branch, centered at Navan fort and was repeatedly successful in repealing attacks on Ulster by the Gaels of queen Maeve.

[Irish_gallowglass]

The Red Hand of Ulster
The ancient symbol of Ulster is the red hand. There are several versions as to the true origins of this symbol.
The first version involves a race between two ships carrying one of the many peoples to invade Ireland. The captains of two ships had a wager that the first to set his hand on the land would own it. One of the captains, seeing he was going to lose cut off his right hand and threw it to the shore winning the wager.
The second version has a biblical reference (Genesis 38 v 28-30) to back the story up and involves Zareh and Pharez, the sons of Judah, the fourth son of Jacob. During their birthing, Zareh's hand protruded first and the midwife tied a scarlet cord around the hand to identify the firstborn. But Zareh drew back his hand and his brother Pharez came out first. Zareh's descendents were therefore disinherited and left the other tribes ending up eventually Ireland and legend tells they developed the first kingdom of Ulster in 1480 BC. The two heraldic symbols were the red hand with scarlet cord (Zareh) and the red lion rampant (Judah), one used by Ulster today, the other by Scotland.

Cuchulainn - the Hound of Ulster
The oldest story in western European history is that of Cuchulainn, the hound of Ulster. Legend has it that the young Cruithin warrior, Setanta killed the hound of the Ulaid lord Chulainn. Setanta took the name Cuchulainn and became his 'hound'. Cuchulainn became the war leader of the Knights of the Red Branch, centered at Navan fort and was repeatedly successful in repealing attacks on Ulster by the Gaels of queen Maeve.

I have a question my friend. What is so repugnant about admitting that the Crest of Ulad, is from two green Irish families?

Ok here is the crest itself



Ok now Burke (Norman-Gaelic family)




Ok now the O'Neills (which this site seems to have it in for)




Hmm... thats strange.

[Kilsally]

No problem with any of those.

[Irish_gallowglass]

No problem with any of those.

Thats great. I just find it weird that many Scots-Irishmen deny their Celtic Irish heritage so much

[JockTheLaird]

Thats great. I just find it weird that many Scots-Irishmen deny their Celtic Irish heritage so much

We don't. We just don't prefer the nineteenth century propeganda that Irish is defined as Celtic and Catholic. Why do so many Irishmen believe they are celtic, when Dublin was founded by Vikings and the Pale was inahbited by Englishmen for hundreds of years? Why do Irishmen forget that during the Hundred Years Wars, loyalists in Calais were described as "as English as Dubliners are in Ireland." Why do extremist Nationalists believe Protestants didn't suffer from famine? Why ask why, people believe what they want to believe, because people like to be deceived.

[Irish_gallowglass]

A great part of Irishness (and Scottishness mind you) is the Celtic background, culture and music. Yes Vikings, English and Scots moved in (even Hugenots and Palatine Germans to a small degree) but they pretty much assimulated into the Irish-Celtic mix of things, though they influenced Celtic Ireland and were influenced themselves. Only in Ulster is there (some) non-integration.

I've never heard anyone claim that Protestants didn't suffer from the Famine (my own Forster's from Tyrone left because of it) or that one must be Catholic to be Irish (not anymore anyways).

[ThatGuy]

A great part of Irishness (and Scottishness mind you) is the Celtic background, culture and music. Yes Vikings, English and Scots moved in (even Hugenots and Palatine Germans to a small degree) but they pretty much assimulated into the Irish-Celtic mix of things, though they influenced Celtic Ireland and were influenced themselves. Only in Ulster is there (some) non-integration.

No, this isn't true. The Vikings of Dublin were very powerful, and spoke their own language until the Norman Conquest, in fact, they allied themselves with their English/Norman neighbors (A medieval history of Ireland, Ottway-Ruthven). Secondly, English, not Gaelic, has been the standard language in Leinster for some time, and also in other dispersed settlements. The Gaelic aristocracy wanted to be English, and wanted to hold lands in the name of the English monarch. Another point of interest, is that the Statutes of Kilkenny were actually enacted a century before Henry V made English the official language of England (Schama, A History of Britain). Assimilation, if by marriage, DNA, then yes, but culturally, the Anglo-Irish of Ireland were not the same as the "Old Irish" of Ireland, but yes, racially, probably no difference. There was a lot of integration in Ulster as well, at least in the North East, where Scottish influence was strong, and the English form of Scots was spoken in medieval Antrim and Down long before the plantation of those counties (Elliot, The Catholics of Ulster).  I'm not saying the Anglo-Irish were English, but to say they assimilated into some sort of ancient celtic culture, which is debatable even for Gaelic Ireland, is not factually correct. Yes, they considered themselves Irish, but that term was not always associated with gaeldom; oddly enough, the Irish were referred to as Scottes well into the fourteenth century. Brian Boru was titled "Scottorum Rex" by the Vatican. The term was probably more cultural than any sort of national recognition, since nationalism and patriotism were virtually unknown in feudal Europe. Nation states, according to Toynbee, usually arose because of political movements which assumed a similar language, religion and ethnicity, and since few states anywhere meet these standards, a lot of history has to be re-imagined, or what historians call "the great lie". This happened with the Anglo-Irish of Keats time, when only the elite, educated, wealthier landowners were considered "Irish". It changed again in the twentieth century, when Ireland was re-imagined as a bastion of Celtic/Catholic culture. This is also odd, because the Pope actually wrote a papal bull announcing Henry II as the King of England and Ireland, and sanctioning a crusade to that island. Odder still, Queen Mary, Henry VIII's daughter, actually planted Catholics in Ireland, as Irish Catholocism was considered heretical by some in the Catholic Church.

None of this really matters, however, as an argument for or against Northern Ireland joining the Republic should be based upon how it benefits the majority of Northern Ireland's citizens.

I've never heard anyone claim that Protestants didn't suffer from the Famine (my own Forster's from Tyrone left because of it) or that one must be Catholic to be Irish (not anymore anyways).

I know plenty of people who believe this.

[ThatGuy]

I don't have time for a verbatum response, but there were many inhabitants of Ireland before the Gaels came. There is a lot of disagreement over who or what the Picts were. We don't know if they were a La Tene style culture or not. As to the red hand, it also features on many Scottish family crests. Family crests are a bit of a misnomer, as heraldry did not apply to an entire family, but rather, one individual in question and his immediate relatives. As to where the Red Hand story comes from, who knows, but I would be reticent to say it belonged soley to this family, which actually sprang from the Connachta.

I'm not sure why DNA would even matter. One's political opinion's should not be based solely on race or religion. It applies to Loyalists as much as Nationalists.