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The geneticists produced a map of Europe with contours linking places that were genetically similar. One contour goes around the edge of the Atlantic, around Wales, Scotland, Ireland and includes Galicia in Spain and the Basque region.
Of the Celtic regions, by far the strongest correspondence is with Scotland,” said Bradley. “It corresponds exactly with language.” While that could be due to the Plantation of Ulster, Bradley said it was more likely due to something much older because the matches occur throughout the whole of Ireland and not just the north.
http://www.timesonli....uk/newspaper/0,,...1247765,00.html
THE long-held belief that Ireland’s population is descended from the Celts has been disproved by geneticists, who have concluded that they never invaded Ireland.
The research at Trinity College Dublin (TCD) into the origins of Ireland’s population found no substantial evidence of the Celts in Irish DNA, and concludes they never settled here en masse.
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The study, part-funded by the National Millennium Committee, has just been published in The American Journal of Human Genetics. It was one of four projects funded by the government under the Genetic History of Ireland programme, which aimed to provide a definitive survey of the origins of the ancient peoples of Ireland.
Part of the project’s brief was to “discover whether there was a large incursion by Celtic people about 2,500 years ago” as was widely believed. After comparing a variety of genetic traits in Irish people with those of thousands of European and Near Eastern inhabitants, the scientists at TCD say there was not.
“Some people would go as far as saying there was total replacement of the population (of Ireland) 2,500 years ago,” said Brian McEvoy, one of the authors. “But if that happened we would definitely be more related to people in central Europe, because the Celts were supposed to have come from there. We’re just not seeing that. We’re seeing something earlier. Our legacy is the result of the first people to settle in Ireland around 9,000 years ago.”
About 15,000 years ago, ice covered Ireland, Britain and a lot of northern Europe so prehistoric man retreated back into Spain, Italy and Greece, which were still fairly temperate. When the ice started melting again around 12,000 years ago, people followed it northwards as areas became habitable again.
“The primary genetic legacy of Ireland seems to have come from people from Spain and Portugal after the last ice age,” said McEvoy. “They seem to have come up along the coast through western Europe and arrived in Ireland, Scotland and Wales. It’s not due to something that happened 2,500 years ago with Celts. “We have a very old genetic legacy.”
While we may not owe our heritage to the Celts, we are still linked to other populations considered Celtic, such as Scotland and Wales. McEvoy said: “It seems to be more a cultural spread than actual people coming in wiping out and replacing everyone else.”
A PhD student in Trinity’s department of genetics, McEvoy will present the findings tomorrow at the Irish Society of Human Genetics annual meeting.
He and Dan Bradley of TCD took samples of mitochondrial DNA, which is inherited from the mother, from 200 volunteers around Ireland using cheek swabs. They also compiled a database of more than 8,500 individuals from around Europe and analysed them for similarities and matches in the sequences.
They found most of the Irish samples matched with those around Britain and the Pyrenees in Spain. There were some matches in Scandinavia and parts of northern Africa.
“Of the Celtic regions, by far the strongest correspondence is with Scotland,” said Bradley. “It corresponds exactly with language.” While that could be due to the Plantation of Ulster, Bradley said it was more likely due to something much older because the matches occur throughout the whole of Ireland and not just the north.
The geneticists produced a map of Europe with contours linking places that were genetically similar. One contour goes around the edge of the Atlantic, around Wales, Scotland, Ireland and includes Galicia in Spain and the Basque region.
“This isn’t consistent with the idea of a large invasion here around 500BC,” said Bradley. “You would expect some more affinity with central Europe if we owed the bulk of our ancestry to a movement from central Europe but we don’t.”
Some archeologists also doubt there was a Celtic invasion because few of their artifacts have been found in Ireland.
The Irish are not Celts, say experts
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#3
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Posted 03 February 2005 - 03:00 PM
Estimating Scandinavian and Gaelic Ancestry in the Male Settlers of Iceland -
http://www.journals....900/001900.html
http://www.journals....900/001900.html
#4
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Posted 03 February 2005 - 03:03 PM
Genes link Celts to Basques
http://news.bbc.co.u...les/1256894.stm
The Welsh and Irish Celts have been found to be the genetic blood-brothers of Basques, scientists have revealed.
The gene patterns of the three races passed down through the male line are all "strikingly similar", researchers concluded.
Link BBC
Ethnic links: Many races share common bonds
Basques can trace their roots back to the Stone Age and are one of Europe's most distinct people, fiercely proud of their ancestry and traditions.
The research adds to previous studies which have suggested a possible link between the Celts and Basques, dating back tens of thousands of years.
"The project started with our trying to assess whether the Vikings made an important genetic contribution to the population of Orkney," Professor David Goldstein of University College London (UCL) told BBC News.
'Statistically indistinguishable'
He and his colleagues looked at Y-chromosomes, passed from father to son, of Celtic and Norwegian populations. They found them to be quite different.
"But we also noticed that there's something quite striking about the Celtic populations, and that is that there's not a lot of genetic variation on the Y-chromosome," he said.
To try to work out where the Celtic population originally came from, the team from UCL, the University of Oxford and the University of California at Davis also looked at Basques.
"On the Y-chromosome the Celtic populations turn out to be statistically indistinguishable from the Basques," Professor Goldstein said.
Pre-farming Europe
The comparison was made because Basques are thought by most experts to be very similar to the people who lived in Europe before the advent of farming.
Genetic tests BBC
Genetic tests have identified key gene groups
"We conclude that both of these populations are reflecting pre-farming Europe," he said.
Professor Goldstein's team looked at the genetic profiles of 88 individuals from Anglesey, North Wales, 146 from Ireland with Irish Gaelic surnames, and 50 Basques.
"We know of no other study that provides direct evidence of a close relationship in the paternal heritage of the Basque- and the Celtic-speaking populations of Britain," the team write in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
http://news.bbc.co.u...les/1256894.stm
The Welsh and Irish Celts have been found to be the genetic blood-brothers of Basques, scientists have revealed.
The gene patterns of the three races passed down through the male line are all "strikingly similar", researchers concluded.
Link BBC
Ethnic links: Many races share common bonds
Basques can trace their roots back to the Stone Age and are one of Europe's most distinct people, fiercely proud of their ancestry and traditions.
The research adds to previous studies which have suggested a possible link between the Celts and Basques, dating back tens of thousands of years.
"The project started with our trying to assess whether the Vikings made an important genetic contribution to the population of Orkney," Professor David Goldstein of University College London (UCL) told BBC News.
'Statistically indistinguishable'
He and his colleagues looked at Y-chromosomes, passed from father to son, of Celtic and Norwegian populations. They found them to be quite different.
"But we also noticed that there's something quite striking about the Celtic populations, and that is that there's not a lot of genetic variation on the Y-chromosome," he said.
To try to work out where the Celtic population originally came from, the team from UCL, the University of Oxford and the University of California at Davis also looked at Basques.
"On the Y-chromosome the Celtic populations turn out to be statistically indistinguishable from the Basques," Professor Goldstein said.
Pre-farming Europe
The comparison was made because Basques are thought by most experts to be very similar to the people who lived in Europe before the advent of farming.
Genetic tests BBC
Genetic tests have identified key gene groups
"We conclude that both of these populations are reflecting pre-farming Europe," he said.
Professor Goldstein's team looked at the genetic profiles of 88 individuals from Anglesey, North Wales, 146 from Ireland with Irish Gaelic surnames, and 50 Basques.
"We know of no other study that provides direct evidence of a close relationship in the paternal heritage of the Basque- and the Celtic-speaking populations of Britain," the team write in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
#5
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Posted 03 February 2005 - 03:05 PM
English and Welsh are races apart
http://news.bbc.co.u...les/2076470.stm
Gene scientists claim to have found proof that the Welsh are the "true" Britons.
The research supports the idea that Celtic Britain underwent a form of ethnic cleansing by Anglo-Saxons invaders following the Roman withdrawal in the fifth century.
Genetic tests BBC
Genetic tests show clear differences between the Welsh and English
It suggests that between 50% and 100% of the indigenous population of what was to become England was wiped out, with Offa's Dyke acting as a "genetic barrier" protecting those on the Welsh side.
And the upheaval can be traced to this day through genetic differences between the English and the Welsh.
Academics at University College in London comparing a sample of men from the UK with those from an area of the Netherlands where the Anglo-Saxons are thought to have originated found the English subjects had genes that were almost identical.
But there were clear differences between the genetic make-up of Welsh people studied.
The research team studied the Y-chromosome, which is passed almost unchanged from father to son, and looked for certain genetic markers.
Link BBC
Ethnic links: Many races share common bonds
They chose seven market towns mentioned in the Domesday Book of 1086 and studied 313 male volunteers whose paternal grandfather had also lived in the area.
They then compared this with samples from Norway and with Friesland, now a northern province of the Netherlands.
The English and Frisians studied had almost identical genetic make-up but the English and Welsh were very different.
The researchers concluded the most likely explanation for this was a large-scale Anglo-Saxon invasion, which devastated the Celtic population of England, but did not reach Wales.
Dr Mark Thomas, of the Centre for Genetic Anthropology at UCL, said their findings suggested that a migration occurred within the last 2,500 years.
Genetic links
It reinforced the idea that the Welsh were the true indigenous Britons.
In April last year, research for a BBC programme on the Vikings revealed strong genetic links between the Welsh and Irish Celts and the Basques of northern Spain and south France.
It suggested a possible link between the Celts and Basques, dating back tens of thousands of years.
The UCL research into the more recent Anglo-Saxon period suggested a migration on a huge scale.
"It appears England is made up of an ethnic cleansing event from people coming across from the continent after the Romans left," he said.
Celtic Britons
Archaeologists after the Second World War rejected the traditionally held view that an Anglo-Saxon invasion pushed the indigenous Celtic Britons to the fringes of Britain.
Instead, they said the arrival of Anglo-Saxon culture could have come from trade or a small ruling elite.
But the latest research by the UCL team, "using genetics as a history book", appears to support the original view of a large-scale invasion of England.
It suggests that the Welsh border was more of a genetic barrier to the Anglo-Saxon Y chromosome gene flow than the North Sea.
Dr Thomas added: "Our findings completely overturn the modern view of the origins of the English."
http://news.bbc.co.u...les/2076470.stm
Gene scientists claim to have found proof that the Welsh are the "true" Britons.
The research supports the idea that Celtic Britain underwent a form of ethnic cleansing by Anglo-Saxons invaders following the Roman withdrawal in the fifth century.
Genetic tests BBC
Genetic tests show clear differences between the Welsh and English
It suggests that between 50% and 100% of the indigenous population of what was to become England was wiped out, with Offa's Dyke acting as a "genetic barrier" protecting those on the Welsh side.
And the upheaval can be traced to this day through genetic differences between the English and the Welsh.
Academics at University College in London comparing a sample of men from the UK with those from an area of the Netherlands where the Anglo-Saxons are thought to have originated found the English subjects had genes that were almost identical.
But there were clear differences between the genetic make-up of Welsh people studied.
The research team studied the Y-chromosome, which is passed almost unchanged from father to son, and looked for certain genetic markers.
Link BBC
Ethnic links: Many races share common bonds
They chose seven market towns mentioned in the Domesday Book of 1086 and studied 313 male volunteers whose paternal grandfather had also lived in the area.
They then compared this with samples from Norway and with Friesland, now a northern province of the Netherlands.
The English and Frisians studied had almost identical genetic make-up but the English and Welsh were very different.
The researchers concluded the most likely explanation for this was a large-scale Anglo-Saxon invasion, which devastated the Celtic population of England, but did not reach Wales.
Dr Mark Thomas, of the Centre for Genetic Anthropology at UCL, said their findings suggested that a migration occurred within the last 2,500 years.
Genetic links
It reinforced the idea that the Welsh were the true indigenous Britons.
In April last year, research for a BBC programme on the Vikings revealed strong genetic links between the Welsh and Irish Celts and the Basques of northern Spain and south France.
It suggested a possible link between the Celts and Basques, dating back tens of thousands of years.
The UCL research into the more recent Anglo-Saxon period suggested a migration on a huge scale.
"It appears England is made up of an ethnic cleansing event from people coming across from the continent after the Romans left," he said.
Celtic Britons
Archaeologists after the Second World War rejected the traditionally held view that an Anglo-Saxon invasion pushed the indigenous Celtic Britons to the fringes of Britain.
Instead, they said the arrival of Anglo-Saxon culture could have come from trade or a small ruling elite.
But the latest research by the UCL team, "using genetics as a history book", appears to support the original view of a large-scale invasion of England.
It suggests that the Welsh border was more of a genetic barrier to the Anglo-Saxon Y chromosome gene flow than the North Sea.
Dr Thomas added: "Our findings completely overturn the modern view of the origins of the English."
#6
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Posted 03 February 2005 - 03:11 PM
Geneticists Show That
Irish Are A Race Apart
By Patricia Reaney
http://uk.news.yahoo...22/1/a27c8.html
3-24-00
LONDON (Reuters) - Irish geneticists have used surnames and the male Y chromosome to reconstruct a one thousand year-old genetic map of Ireland that shows the Irish really are a race apart.
"When you look at this old genetic geography of Ireland what you find is that in the West (of the country) we are almost exclusively of one type of Y chromosome," Daniel Bradley told Reuters.
The Y chromosome is passed down exclusively from father to son. It is a favourite of geneticists because it accentuates differences between populations.
"It is inherited as a unit so the information you get from it is of a special type," Bradley said in a telephone interview.
Bradley and his colleagues at Trinity College in Dublin examined the Y chromosomes of men with Gaelic surnames in the western-most province of Connaught, and found that 98.3 percent had a group of genes on the Y chromosome known as haplogroup 1.
"When you look at Gaelic surnames they are different in frequency of Y chromosome types from non- Gaelic surnames," Bradley said.
In a report in the science journal Nature, he and his colleagues said that even within Ireland they found differences.
More than 98 percent of men with Gaelic names in western Ireland had haplogroup 1 but numbers dropped drastically on the east of the Emerald Isle.
Much further east in Turkey only 1.8 percent of men carry haplogroup 1.
"Ireland may tell us something about European diversity because it is on the edge of Europe. Genetic diversity follows geography to some extent," Bradley said.
The researchers said there is a gradient of haplogroup 1 across Europe starting at almost zero in the Far East to almost 100 percent in the west of Ireland.
One of the most likely explanations for this is that farming, which was invented about 10,000 years ago in the near East and caused a fundamental revolution in the way humans lived, spread over across Europe with time but only arrived in western Ireland about 6,000 years ago.
"Ireland has been relatively untouched by this and the other great demographic movements because of its location. That gives us the ability to look at the west and surnames and to get a snapshot of what early European genetics may have been like," Bradley said.
Irish Are A Race Apart
By Patricia Reaney
http://uk.news.yahoo...22/1/a27c8.html
3-24-00
LONDON (Reuters) - Irish geneticists have used surnames and the male Y chromosome to reconstruct a one thousand year-old genetic map of Ireland that shows the Irish really are a race apart.
"When you look at this old genetic geography of Ireland what you find is that in the West (of the country) we are almost exclusively of one type of Y chromosome," Daniel Bradley told Reuters.
The Y chromosome is passed down exclusively from father to son. It is a favourite of geneticists because it accentuates differences between populations.
"It is inherited as a unit so the information you get from it is of a special type," Bradley said in a telephone interview.
Bradley and his colleagues at Trinity College in Dublin examined the Y chromosomes of men with Gaelic surnames in the western-most province of Connaught, and found that 98.3 percent had a group of genes on the Y chromosome known as haplogroup 1.
"When you look at Gaelic surnames they are different in frequency of Y chromosome types from non- Gaelic surnames," Bradley said.
In a report in the science journal Nature, he and his colleagues said that even within Ireland they found differences.
More than 98 percent of men with Gaelic names in western Ireland had haplogroup 1 but numbers dropped drastically on the east of the Emerald Isle.
Much further east in Turkey only 1.8 percent of men carry haplogroup 1.
"Ireland may tell us something about European diversity because it is on the edge of Europe. Genetic diversity follows geography to some extent," Bradley said.
The researchers said there is a gradient of haplogroup 1 across Europe starting at almost zero in the Far East to almost 100 percent in the west of Ireland.
One of the most likely explanations for this is that farming, which was invented about 10,000 years ago in the near East and caused a fundamental revolution in the way humans lived, spread over across Europe with time but only arrived in western Ireland about 6,000 years ago.
"Ireland has been relatively untouched by this and the other great demographic movements because of its location. That gives us the ability to look at the west and surnames and to get a snapshot of what early European genetics may have been like," Bradley said.
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Posted 03 February 2005 - 03:12 PM
http://home.comcast....haplogroupI.htm
Notes on Y-Chromosome Haplogroup R1b
R1b (previously known as Hg1 and Eu18) is the most prolific haplogroup in Europe and its frequency changes in a cline from west (where it reaches a saturation point of almost 100% in areas of Western Ireland) to east (where it becomes uncommon in parts of Eastern Europe and virtually disappears beyond the Middle East). A R1b haplotype (a set of marker scores indicative of the haplogroup) is very difficult to interpret in that they are found at relatively high frequency in the areas where the Anglo - Saxon and Danish "invaders" originally called home (e.g., 55% in Friesland), and even up to 30% in Norway. Thus a R1b haplotype makes it very challenging to determine the origin of a family with this DNA signature.
During the Last Glacial Maximum, about 18,000 years ago, the people bearing the R1b haplogroup over wintered in Northern Spain (see map1). After the glacial retreat about 12,000 years before present, R1b began a migration to the north in large numbers (see map 2), and to the east in declining numbers.
R1b probably arrived in Spain from the east 30,000 years ago among the paleolithic or "old stone age" peoples considered to be aboriginal to Europe). It is believed that everyone who is R1b is a descendant in the male line from an individual known as "the patriarch" since his descendants account for over 40% of all the chromosomes of Europe. This haplogroup is characteristic of the Basques whose language is probably that of the first R1b, and who are genetically the closest to the original R1b population (which probably amounted to only a few thousand individuals). Source: Dr. David Faux http://www.davidkfau...ndhaplogroupR1b
The members of R1b3 (or R-M269, formerly known as R1b) are believed to be the descendants of the first modern humans who entered Europe about 35,000-40,000 years ago ( Aurignacian culture). Those R1b3 forebearers were the people who painted the beautiful art in the caves in Spain and France. They were the modern humans who were the contemporaries - and perhaps exterminators - of the European Neanderthals. Source: http://freepages.gen..._2003_R1b3.html
Hg R was the dominant lineage in Western Europe and then, pushed south by the descending Ice Age, to southwestern France and northwestern Spain to evolve into lineage Hg R1b. This area became a refuge for humans in Europe during the coldest millennia of the last Ice Age. As the climate warmed, the scattered clan Hg R1b followed the migration of game to the north and some of them reached what is now the British Isles about 15,000 years ago which at this time was connected to mainland Europe. It is believed they changed from hunter-gatherers to farmers in southeastern Europe about 8,000 years ago and in Britain about 4,000 years ago. As hunter-gathers became farmer’s permanent settlements ended this great migration period and over time Hg R1b settled predominately in what is known today as Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium, Denmark, England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland.
Notes on Y-Chromosome Haplogroup R1b
R1b (previously known as Hg1 and Eu18) is the most prolific haplogroup in Europe and its frequency changes in a cline from west (where it reaches a saturation point of almost 100% in areas of Western Ireland) to east (where it becomes uncommon in parts of Eastern Europe and virtually disappears beyond the Middle East). A R1b haplotype (a set of marker scores indicative of the haplogroup) is very difficult to interpret in that they are found at relatively high frequency in the areas where the Anglo - Saxon and Danish "invaders" originally called home (e.g., 55% in Friesland), and even up to 30% in Norway. Thus a R1b haplotype makes it very challenging to determine the origin of a family with this DNA signature.
During the Last Glacial Maximum, about 18,000 years ago, the people bearing the R1b haplogroup over wintered in Northern Spain (see map1). After the glacial retreat about 12,000 years before present, R1b began a migration to the north in large numbers (see map 2), and to the east in declining numbers.
R1b probably arrived in Spain from the east 30,000 years ago among the paleolithic or "old stone age" peoples considered to be aboriginal to Europe). It is believed that everyone who is R1b is a descendant in the male line from an individual known as "the patriarch" since his descendants account for over 40% of all the chromosomes of Europe. This haplogroup is characteristic of the Basques whose language is probably that of the first R1b, and who are genetically the closest to the original R1b population (which probably amounted to only a few thousand individuals). Source: Dr. David Faux http://www.davidkfau...ndhaplogroupR1b
The members of R1b3 (or R-M269, formerly known as R1b) are believed to be the descendants of the first modern humans who entered Europe about 35,000-40,000 years ago ( Aurignacian culture). Those R1b3 forebearers were the people who painted the beautiful art in the caves in Spain and France. They were the modern humans who were the contemporaries - and perhaps exterminators - of the European Neanderthals. Source: http://freepages.gen..._2003_R1b3.html
Hg R was the dominant lineage in Western Europe and then, pushed south by the descending Ice Age, to southwestern France and northwestern Spain to evolve into lineage Hg R1b. This area became a refuge for humans in Europe during the coldest millennia of the last Ice Age. As the climate warmed, the scattered clan Hg R1b followed the migration of game to the north and some of them reached what is now the British Isles about 15,000 years ago which at this time was connected to mainland Europe. It is believed they changed from hunter-gatherers to farmers in southeastern Europe about 8,000 years ago and in Britain about 4,000 years ago. As hunter-gathers became farmer’s permanent settlements ended this great migration period and over time Hg R1b settled predominately in what is known today as Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium, Denmark, England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland.
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Posted 07 February 2005 - 02:11 PM
Were good looking alright -
The Picts are interesting. The language they spoke is now regarded as being of the P-Celtic variety. P-Celtic languages are the Briton languages of Welsh, Cornish and Breton. The Q-Celtic languages are the Gaelic languages of Irish, Scottish Gaelic and Manx. This makes sense considering that the so called Celtic languages are not true Indo-European languages. They do have many Indo-European words, but their structure has more in common with the Stone-Age European language still spoken by the Basques. In other words, the Gaels, Picts and Britons all have their ancestry in Iberia, where the R1B haplogroup originated. Over 80% of Irish, Scots, Welsh and Basques belong to this genetic group. Basically, the Picts, Britons and Gaels all have common ancestors but have evolved over the last 10,000 years or so into separate civilizations.
http://www.candledar...lver/picts.html
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Posted 09 February 2005 - 11:08 AM
>>I had read somewhere, awhile back, that red hair comes from a Norse bloodline.
Well as I said, Scotland and Ireland are about 80% R1B, and this genetic mutation took place among the Stone Age European population 30,000 years ago in Iberia. After the Ice Age, this population began spreading north along the Atlantic coast. Haplogroup I is the main central European haplogroup and is associated with the Neolithic invaders of Europe. Ireland is around 15% Haplogroup I (primarily in the east) and Scotland is about 10%. The other main haplogroup found in northern Europe is haplogroup R1A, which is found mostly in eastern Europe, and found its way to these islands via the Vikings. The lack of R1A in Ireland leads anthropologists to believe that the Vikings had very little genetic influence here. Norway, is about 30% R1B, but Iceland is 50% R1B and was first settled by the Gaels. Sweden is roughly 20% R1B and Finland has almost no R1B markers among its population. Therefore it is most likely that red hair is a feature of the European Stone Age population to which the R1B haplogroup pertains. Also, it is worth noting that most people in Britain and Ireland have hazel coloured hair, which is basically brown hair with red highlights.
Well as I said, Scotland and Ireland are about 80% R1B, and this genetic mutation took place among the Stone Age European population 30,000 years ago in Iberia. After the Ice Age, this population began spreading north along the Atlantic coast. Haplogroup I is the main central European haplogroup and is associated with the Neolithic invaders of Europe. Ireland is around 15% Haplogroup I (primarily in the east) and Scotland is about 10%. The other main haplogroup found in northern Europe is haplogroup R1A, which is found mostly in eastern Europe, and found its way to these islands via the Vikings. The lack of R1A in Ireland leads anthropologists to believe that the Vikings had very little genetic influence here. Norway, is about 30% R1B, but Iceland is 50% R1B and was first settled by the Gaels. Sweden is roughly 20% R1B and Finland has almost no R1B markers among its population. Therefore it is most likely that red hair is a feature of the European Stone Age population to which the R1B haplogroup pertains. Also, it is worth noting that most people in Britain and Ireland have hazel coloured hair, which is basically brown hair with red highlights.
Posted 11 February 2005 - 09:14 AM
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Posted 11 February 2005 - 03:07 PM
>>Any other sources I've read suggest very little is known about the Picts, and any specualtion as whether they are of Celtic or Germanic extraction is purely that - speculation.
The terms Celtic or Germanic have no relevance with regard to the Picts. The Picts were genetically of European Stone Age extraction and this has been conclusively proved using y-chromosome analysis. The Celts and Germanics are associated with Europe's Neolithic invaders, who brought the Indo-European language to Europe. People in so-called Celtic nations are also fundamentally of Stone Age extraction. Languages like Gaelic and Cornish are structurally and grammatically very similar to the Basque language, which was once considered the only surviving Stone Age European language. Gaelic has many Indo-European words, but this has resulted from cultural assimilation, primarily via contact with the Romans and Britons. The term q-celtic is with respect to Goidelic languages, while p-Celtic is with respect to the Brythonic branch. A few examples will help explain why -
English - Irish - Welsh
who - cé - pwy
what - cad - pa
five - cúig - pump
son - mac - map
kettle, cauldron - coire - pair
The letter "p" is lacking in the earliest Irish documents, existing only as a Latin borrow. Oddly enough, the other major difference between "Q-Celtic" and "P-Celtic" is the substitution of "f" and "g". In the Q branch, the letter "f" appears where in the P branch the letter "g" appears -
man - fir - gwr
white - fionn - gwyn
It has been found by analysing village names etc in northern Scotland that the Picts spoke a language of the p-celtic variety. This does not mean the Picts are Celts, because in reality nether were the Gaels. Instead they were different native European civilizations.
I might also add that the Germanics were far from being a homogonous group. Germans today have are mix of people with different genetic backgrounds - R1B 40%, I 20%, R1A 40%, while the English are 50% R1B, 40% I, 10% R1A and this differs greatly depending on where in England your referring to. So called Celtic nations are around 80% R1B.
There is no doubt in my mind that the Scottish and Irish are each others closest relative. Take these two brothers for example!
Jeffery Donaldson of Ulster Scots extraction.
Daniel O'Donell of native Irish extraction.
The terms Celtic or Germanic have no relevance with regard to the Picts. The Picts were genetically of European Stone Age extraction and this has been conclusively proved using y-chromosome analysis. The Celts and Germanics are associated with Europe's Neolithic invaders, who brought the Indo-European language to Europe. People in so-called Celtic nations are also fundamentally of Stone Age extraction. Languages like Gaelic and Cornish are structurally and grammatically very similar to the Basque language, which was once considered the only surviving Stone Age European language. Gaelic has many Indo-European words, but this has resulted from cultural assimilation, primarily via contact with the Romans and Britons. The term q-celtic is with respect to Goidelic languages, while p-Celtic is with respect to the Brythonic branch. A few examples will help explain why -
English - Irish - Welsh
who - cé - pwy
what - cad - pa
five - cúig - pump
son - mac - map
kettle, cauldron - coire - pair
The letter "p" is lacking in the earliest Irish documents, existing only as a Latin borrow. Oddly enough, the other major difference between "Q-Celtic" and "P-Celtic" is the substitution of "f" and "g". In the Q branch, the letter "f" appears where in the P branch the letter "g" appears -
man - fir - gwr
white - fionn - gwyn
It has been found by analysing village names etc in northern Scotland that the Picts spoke a language of the p-celtic variety. This does not mean the Picts are Celts, because in reality nether were the Gaels. Instead they were different native European civilizations.
I might also add that the Germanics were far from being a homogonous group. Germans today have are mix of people with different genetic backgrounds - R1B 40%, I 20%, R1A 40%, while the English are 50% R1B, 40% I, 10% R1A and this differs greatly depending on where in England your referring to. So called Celtic nations are around 80% R1B.
There is no doubt in my mind that the Scottish and Irish are each others closest relative. Take these two brothers for example!
Jeffery Donaldson of Ulster Scots extraction.
Daniel O'Donell of native Irish extraction.
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Posted 11 February 2005 - 09:17 PM
I dunno - considering the number of Irish who have been flooding England for centuries and the fact a lot of old English settled in Ireland makes me think the English and the Irish are more alike - as Blackmouth's photos suggest, Scots and Ulster-Scots are one people.
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Posted 13 February 2005 - 06:43 PM
QUOTE
Scots and Ulster-Scots are one people
The Ulster-Scots and Scots are made up of several different people, dont make out that your this pure group of people
The Ulster-Scots have more English, French and Irish in them than the Scots
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Posted 14 February 2005 - 06:58 AM
PRE CELTIC IRELAND.
In 6/7000 B.C. Ireland was covered in dense forests of pine and hazel,oak and elm. About this time the first people crossed over from SCANDINAVIA TO BRITAIN and made their way across the narrow sea from SCOTLAND TO ULSTER. Because of the thick forests these people travelled along the rivers and lakes and along the seacoasts.
They made their way up the River Bann to Lough Neagh and spread slowly southwards. They were hunters and fishermen and lived beside lakes and rivers.
According to scholars they were tall, broad shouldered and large chested. Their forehead was broad and high, their hair was brown,fair, and often red and their eyes light mixed blue. Their skin was typically inclined to freckling and very fair.
CELTS AND NORMANS BY GEAROID MacGEARAITT [GILL AND McMILLAN PRESS ]1969.
600 B.C. THE CELTS COME TO IRELAND
Historians are not sure when the Celts came to Ireland and Britain. It is probable that the first important group of Celts came to Ireland from the lands about the Rhine,up the North Sea and across Britain to Ireland. We believe they came about 600 B.C..
CELTS AND NORMANS BY GEAROID MacGEARAITT[GILL AND McMILLAN PRESS]
1969
In 6/7000 B.C. Ireland was covered in dense forests of pine and hazel,oak and elm. About this time the first people crossed over from SCANDINAVIA TO BRITAIN and made their way across the narrow sea from SCOTLAND TO ULSTER. Because of the thick forests these people travelled along the rivers and lakes and along the seacoasts.
They made their way up the River Bann to Lough Neagh and spread slowly southwards. They were hunters and fishermen and lived beside lakes and rivers.
According to scholars they were tall, broad shouldered and large chested. Their forehead was broad and high, their hair was brown,fair, and often red and their eyes light mixed blue. Their skin was typically inclined to freckling and very fair.
CELTS AND NORMANS BY GEAROID MacGEARAITT [GILL AND McMILLAN PRESS ]1969.
600 B.C. THE CELTS COME TO IRELAND
Historians are not sure when the Celts came to Ireland and Britain. It is probable that the first important group of Celts came to Ireland from the lands about the Rhine,up the North Sea and across Britain to Ireland. We believe they came about 600 B.C..
CELTS AND NORMANS BY GEAROID MacGEARAITT[GILL AND McMILLAN PRESS]
1969
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Posted 14 February 2005 - 02:40 PM
>>I dunno - considering the number of Irish who have been flooding England for centuries and the fact a lot of old English settled in Ireland makes me think the English and the Irish are more alike - as Blackmouth's photos suggest, Scots and Ulster-Scots are one people.
Well UlsterScot, I'd be more inclined to go with scientists rather than a hunch you might have. Scientists say that the Scottish and the Irish (all) are each others closest relatives. We also have by far and away the highest percentages of redheads as I pointed out above.
Parts of Ulster were planted with English settlers. The Irish midlands were planted also and there are many English names there, as in Dublin. But the English did not settle most of Ireland and the vast majority of the population have Gaelic names. I also think I'm right in saying that most Ulster-Scots have Gaelic names. Both Campbell and Shaw are Gaelic.
The province of Connacht is 98% R1B and this confirms that this population is ancient European and not Neolithic (Indo-European). Munster is 94% R1B, Ulster 80% and Leinster 75%. England is 55% or so. Germany is 40%. In otherwords, there is a cline from west to east across Europe, with regard to Stone Age European ancestry.
The native Irish have heavily settled most of England’s big cities, of course.
>>600 B.C. THE CELTS COME TO IRELAND
Thats exactly my point. The Irish (and Scottish) are not Celtic. They are for the most part descendant from the first settlers of these Islands. The Celts invaded Europe 3,000 years ago, while the R1B marker results from a mutation that is traced back to Iberia 30,000 years ago. The Gaelic Irish in western Ireland are the most homogonous group of people in Europe, and are almost 100% descendant from Stone Age Europeans, who began leaving Iberia after the Ice Age, arriving in Ireland about 10,000 years ago. The oldest building in Europe is in Co. Meath and was built 5,000 years ago -
Newgrange has examples of what people refer to as Celtic art -
Well UlsterScot, I'd be more inclined to go with scientists rather than a hunch you might have. Scientists say that the Scottish and the Irish (all) are each others closest relatives. We also have by far and away the highest percentages of redheads as I pointed out above.
Parts of Ulster were planted with English settlers. The Irish midlands were planted also and there are many English names there, as in Dublin. But the English did not settle most of Ireland and the vast majority of the population have Gaelic names. I also think I'm right in saying that most Ulster-Scots have Gaelic names. Both Campbell and Shaw are Gaelic.
The province of Connacht is 98% R1B and this confirms that this population is ancient European and not Neolithic (Indo-European). Munster is 94% R1B, Ulster 80% and Leinster 75%. England is 55% or so. Germany is 40%. In otherwords, there is a cline from west to east across Europe, with regard to Stone Age European ancestry.
The native Irish have heavily settled most of England’s big cities, of course.
>>600 B.C. THE CELTS COME TO IRELAND
Thats exactly my point. The Irish (and Scottish) are not Celtic. They are for the most part descendant from the first settlers of these Islands. The Celts invaded Europe 3,000 years ago, while the R1B marker results from a mutation that is traced back to Iberia 30,000 years ago. The Gaelic Irish in western Ireland are the most homogonous group of people in Europe, and are almost 100% descendant from Stone Age Europeans, who began leaving Iberia after the Ice Age, arriving in Ireland about 10,000 years ago. The oldest building in Europe is in Co. Meath and was built 5,000 years ago -
Newgrange has examples of what people refer to as Celtic art -