15 replies to this topic

[Kilsally]

Newsletter
29th August 2005
Call To Oppose A United Ireland

EXCLUSIVE

BY STEPHEN DEMPSTER
Political Correspondent
[email protected]

A CAMPAIGN urging Protestants and unionists to oppose a united Ireland is to be launched today at what its organisers are calling a "crisis point" for Ulster.

The News Letter can reveal that the Love Ulster Campaign will be unveiled this morning with the delivery of 200,000 newspapers to the port of Larne.

A website will also be officially opened for people to register support and exchange ideas on creating different long-term means of expression and protest.

The campaign, established by victims' groups, the Loyal Orders and members of the public, intends to reflect growing unionist anger and frustration at the peace process.

However, unionist politicians have deliberately been left out of the planning as people power takes over.
Last night a campaign spokesman said: "Enough is enough. The democratic wishes of our people are being ignored. We will not allow this to continue."

loveulster

Newspaper Will Spread Message Ulster-Wide
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/story/22327

Monday 29th August 2005
A newspaper, posters and website are to be the foundation stones of the Love Ulster Campaign. It is understood that a large part of the inspiration for the initiative stems from what the organisers believe is a need to counteract republican propaganda on a global scale.
They also feel that the written word is the modern weapon in the struggle between unionism and republicanism - and unionism has been losing the battle. The first newspaper, headlined "Ulster At Crisis Point" - is 16 pages long and incorporates the views of people and groups who feel disenfranchised and under threat. It is a free paper, published by the Shankill Mirror, which will be collected by vans and cars at Larne and distributed to cities, towns and villages across the Province. It will also be available to read at www.loveulster.com. The website will be a soapbox for ideas and a forum for debate, as well as a place offering information. These, it is envisaged, will be the building blocks for a long-term people's campaign. A spokesman said: "The unionist community has called out for a strong, united voice and we have answered that call. "This newspaper, together with www.loveulster.com, provides that voice free from political, social or economic influence. "It is for the people, by the people and will reflect the true feeling of our community. Ulster Protestants now have a chance to speak out and let the world listen as the website is a global soapbox for our opinions, ideas and aspirations.

"Both the newspaper and the website will become outlets for our culture, our history and our analysis of those things. They will unite and give unfettered voice to the stories of suffering and survival that have gone unheard for too long. "They will link isolated and suffering communities across our land, bringing town and country, rich and poor together.
"A free Press is one of the foundations of any democracy, and we aim to defeat terrorism and the political puppeteers who permit it so that democracy may thrive in this part of the United Kingdom. "Our success in this venture depends on you - the people of Ulster." The website will carry regular news and campaign updates. The spokesman appealed to the public to "log on, register and add fuel to that vital debate". Future Province-wide issues of Shankill Mirror "will reflect the views of the Ulster people, as the current Belfast freesheet reflects the views of the Greater Shankill community".

War Of Words In Union's Defence
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/story/22334

Exclusive By Stephen Dempster Political Correspondent

Monday 29th August 2005
A campaign urging hundreds of thousands of Protestants and unionists to oppose a united Ireland is to be launched today. Amid what the organisers are calling a "crisis point" for the Union, the Love Ulster Campaign is being established as frustration continues to grow at the direction the peace process is taking.
The organisers have said their actions will be entirely peaceful and are a response to growing concerns. In a statement released exclusively to the News Letter, spokesman William Wilkinson said the Government was failing to grasp the strength of feeling over recent developments, which can be seen not only in hardline unionist anger but in anger among moderate unionism and even non-unionists. He said: "Enough is enough. The democratic wishes of our people have been, and continue to be ignored. "Even now, our democratically-elected representatives are not allowed to negotiate vital elements of our future. "If democracy - which is patently on its last legs in Northern Ireland - is to survive, then we, the people, must save it before it is further devalued and made a nonsense by concessions to murderous terrorists and their political frontmen.

"The unionist community has called out for a strong united voice and we have answered the call." The campaign is to be unveiled to the media at Larne port this morning.
It will begin with the distribution of 200,000 free newspapers across the Province. These, along with posters, have been brought by boat to Larne in a symbolic re-creation of the delivery of guns to the old Ulster Volunteer Force on the Clyde Valley in 1914. A website (www. loveulster.com) will also be launched, at which people will be invited to register support, voice their opinion and engage in debate. Organisers said the campaign will remain focused on entirely peaceful means to defend their heritage, beliefs and home within the United Kingdom. Their struggle, they added, is beginning with absolutely no input from unionist politicians who they say have so far failed them. It also does not involve paramilitaries, whose violent methods are opposed. Their plan is to embark on a long protest, building momentum through various events and activities. The venture has been established by victims' groups from throughout Northern Ireland, with support from all the different branches of the Loyal Orders and some Church figures.

Plans were hatched at secret meetings with the support of the editorial board of the Shankill Mirror which has produced the newspaper and plans further Province-wide publications. In keeping with the intention to make the campaign people-led, it will be launched by faces mainly unknown to the public.
William Wilkinson, the chief researcher for victims' group Families Acting for Innocent Relatives (FAIR), will be a main media spokesman. Also at today's launch will be Ashley Graham and her sister Manya Dickinson, the daughters of construction magnate Kenny Graham, a Kilkeel man murdered by the IRA in 1990. They will be joined by Orange Order Grand Master Robert Saulters, while former Presbyterian Moderator the Rev Dr David McCaughey is also offering support. [email protected]



EDITORIAL
Concessions Provoke An Inevitable Response
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/story/22323

Monday 29th August 2005
Political trends over the summer emanating from Prime Minister Tony Blair's willingness to facilitate the Sinn Fein-IRA demand list has caused serious concern within the unionist majority in the Province. The Government's outrageous raft of side deals with the Irish republican movement has created a political instability which significantly reduces the prospects of achieving a devolved power-sharing administration.
The unionist community has been treated abominably by its own Government and there is now a strong feeling in pro-Union circles that a determined push is on to achieve a united Ireland, coming not just from republicans. The machinations of Downing Street in London, against the democraticallyexpressed wishes of the greater number of people in this part of the UK, are placing enormous strains on a political process, which, at the signing of the Belfast Agreement in 1998, laid much emphasis on the concept of consent.

It is not surprising, therefore, that a campaign is being launched to co-ordinate unionists in opposition to a united Ireland and the "crisis point" which many people believe has been reached for the Union. The Love Ulster campaign, which will be entirely of peaceful intent, is so far being driven from outside the main unionist parties and is harnessed towards enlisting the support of the wider unionist populace.
Organisers are largely drawn from victims' groups throughout Northern Ireland and there is an input from the loyal orders and clergy within the Protestant churches. To be really effective within the corridors of power at Westminster and at a local level the campaign will require the full endorsement of the elected politicians, and the policies must be such as to avoid the disunity which was so apparent in unionism over recent years. Sensibly, the campaign will avoid having any truck with the loyalist paramilitaries whose violent and criminal activities have sullied the proud name of Ulster loyalism. With the aim focused on democraticallyand resolutely defending our place in the United Kingdom it should be a campaign enlisting support of all who value their British citizenship.



Marching Finale The main loyal order marching season ended on Saturday with tens of thousands of people turning out to watch the Royal Black Institution parades at the six main demonstrations.
The estimated 30,000 marchers provided a cultural and musical spectacle with dignity, decorum and colour. Unfortunately, RBP marchers and bandsmen in Castlederg faced an " unprovoked" attack from republicans on a homeward parade on Saturday night and several people were injured, including two senior members of the local preceptory. The incident was the only one to mar the traditional Last Saturday parades, which are a significant feature of the cultural canopy in our Province.






Newsletter
29th August 2005

Proving pen mightier than the sword

THE Love Ulster Campaign's inaugural statement of intent explained that its organisers felt compelled to act to make Protestant and unionist voices heard and to counteract what it feels has been a long-term republican propaganda initiative to demonise and demoralise those voices.

In the statement, one of the campaign's spokesmen, William Wilkinson, said: "Over the past decade the IRA's war against the Protestant community has changed. It has not ended, just evolved.

"Political appeasement has allowed the membership and supporters of Sinn Fein/IRA to legitimise themselves, and as they could not win the war they are intent on winning the peace.

"The new weapon in the Sinn Fein/IRA war is the written word, with propaganda now being used to victimise our people as republicans desperately try to rewrite history.

"For too long our community has lacked the means to defend itself on this new battlefield, where the pen is mightier than the sword. We have lacked an effective voice which will unite and fight for the rights of our people.

"For too long republicans and nationalists have dominated the media, and we have been portrayed around the world through the eyes of our enemies.

"Just as the Irish government gave republicans the arms to attack our community at the start of the Troubles, now we see the British Government giving them the weapons to attack our people again."
Mr Wilkinson said "we must now take action and clarify the historical truth of events in Northern Ireland", a clear reference to what the campaign believes has been republicanism's success in portraying itself as the victim and the IRA as "humanitarian freedom fighters".

Campaign newspapers, a website and other ventures will be directed at spreading the stories of victims and of the reality of both violent and militant peace time republicanism.

Mr Wilkinson also said the campaign had a message for unionist politicians.

He explained: "Unionism must not support a political process where it is not free to negotiate all matters that impact on our people. We will no longer accept the scraps from the negotiating table. We will dine at a table, at a time and from a menu of our choosing.

"Before allowing themselves to become further enmeshed in powerless negotiating with terrorists and a Government that wants to rid itself of what Peter Hain and Tony Blair have referred to as the 'Irish problem', we call upon our politicians to unite and listen to the views and the wishes of their own people."

Mr Wilkinson added that "their performance to date is quite simply unacceptable", but added that it is believed the door has not been closed to future political support and cooperation.

"We will unite different stands of opinion from within our community to develop a strategic response and a democratic alternative to the current sickening process of appeasement in the face of fear," he said.

"Our aim is to eventually facilitate and promote a democratic, alternative model of Government, based on justice, equality and security for all."


Newsletter
29th August 2005

Launch reflects early campaign


THE unveiling of the Love Ulster campaign in Larne is symbolic, making reference to aprevious campaign by
Ulster Protestants to resist Home Rule almost 100 years ago.

On this occasion newspapers have been brought by boat to the ferry port, as the written word will
be the weapon of the new and peaceful campaign.

But on April 24, 1914, when the SS Clyde Valley docked at Larne, guns were the consignment as
the 80,000-strong Ulster Volunteer Force led by Sir Edward Carson pledged to resist Home Rule
by whatever means necessary.

The Clyde Valley, a collier, landed the guns and ammunition at Larne from where they distributed them to other
ports and then throughout the Province.

The gun-running coup was organised by former British Army officer and Boer war veteran Fred Crawford.

The weapons, which were bought in Hamburg, were first loaded on the 480ton SS Fanny under the cargo description
of "zinc plate" before being transferred to the SS Clyde Valley at sea.

At the time, civil war looked inevitable, but the advent of World War One brought to a halt
plans to enact the Home Rule Bill and averted violent action.

A Love Ulster Campaign spokesman said: "Just as our forefathers faced dark days, encircled by enemies, they put their
faith in God and determined to take resolute action. They united and took a stand against the government policy of that
day, which was destined to destroy them.

"In the face of such opposition, they acquired the means of their defence and on April 24, 1914 at Larne, the Clyde Valley landed its cargo.

"As we have said, the struggle for freedom continues today, the only difference being the type of weapon needed as today, thankfully, the pen is mightier than the sword.

"Reflecting our historic spirit of self-defence, we have landed at Larne the newspaper which shall open the debate on
what really went on during the Troubles, and given a voice to those who really deserve it - the victims, not the Irish terrorists
who created them."

[chieftain]

Newsletter
29th August 2005
Call To Oppose A United Ireland

EXCLUSIVE

BY STEPHEN DEMPSTER
Political Correspondent
[email protected]

A CAMPAIGN urging Protestants and unionists to oppose a united Ireland is to be launched today at what its organisers are calling a "crisis point" for Ulster.

The News Letter can reveal that the Love Ulster Campaign will be unveiled this morning with the delivery of 200,000 newspapers to the port of Larne.

A website will also be officially opened for people to register support and exchange ideas on creating different long-term means of expression and protest.

The campaign, established by victims' groups, the Loyal Orders and members of the public, intends to reflect growing unionist anger and frustration at the peace process.

However, unionist politicians have deliberately been left out of the planning as people power takes over.
Last night a campaign spokesman said: "Enough is enough. The democratic wishes of our people are being ignored. We will not allow this to continue."

loveulster

Newspaper Will Spread Message Ulster-Wide
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/story/22327

Monday 29th August 2005
A newspaper, posters and website are to be the foundation stones of the Love Ulster Campaign. It is understood that a large part of the inspiration for the initiative stems from what the organisers believe is a need to counteract republican propaganda on a global scale.
They also feel that the written word is the modern weapon in the struggle between unionism and republicanism - and unionism has been losing the battle. The first newspaper, headlined "Ulster At Crisis Point" - is 16 pages long and incorporates the views of people and groups who feel disenfranchised and under threat. It is a free paper, published by the Shankill Mirror, which will be collected by vans and cars at Larne and distributed to cities, towns and villages across the Province. It will also be available to read at www.loveulster.com. The website will be a soapbox for ideas and a forum for debate, as well as a place offering information. These, it is envisaged, will be the building blocks for a long-term people's campaign. A spokesman said: "The unionist community has called out for a strong, united voice and we have answered that call. "This newspaper, together with www.loveulster.com, provides that voice free from political, social or economic influence. "It is for the people, by the people and will reflect the true feeling of our community. Ulster Protestants now have a chance to speak out and let the world listen as the website is a global soapbox for our opinions, ideas and aspirations.

"Both the newspaper and the website will become outlets for our culture, our history and our analysis of those things. They will unite and give unfettered voice to the stories of suffering and survival that have gone unheard for too long. "They will link isolated and suffering communities across our land, bringing town and country, rich and poor together.
"A free Press is one of the foundations of any democracy, and we aim to defeat terrorism and the political puppeteers who permit it so that democracy may thrive in this part of the United Kingdom. "Our success in this venture depends on you - the people of Ulster." The website will carry regular news and campaign updates. The spokesman appealed to the public to "log on, register and add fuel to that vital debate". Future Province-wide issues of Shankill Mirror "will reflect the views of the Ulster people, as the current Belfast freesheet reflects the views of the Greater Shankill community".

War Of Words In Union's Defence
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/story/22334

Exclusive By Stephen Dempster Political Correspondent

Monday 29th August 2005
A campaign urging hundreds of thousands of Protestants and unionists to oppose a united Ireland is to be launched today. Amid what the organisers are calling a "crisis point" for the Union, the Love Ulster Campaign is being established as frustration continues to grow at the direction the peace process is taking.
The organisers have said their actions will be entirely peaceful and are a response to growing concerns. In a statement released exclusively to the News Letter, spokesman William Wilkinson said the Government was failing to grasp the strength of feeling over recent developments, which can be seen not only in hardline unionist anger but in anger among moderate unionism and even non-unionists. He said: "Enough is enough. The democratic wishes of our people have been, and continue to be ignored. "Even now, our democratically-elected representatives are not allowed to negotiate vital elements of our future. "If democracy - which is patently on its last legs in Northern Ireland - is to survive, then we, the people, must save it before it is further devalued and made a nonsense by concessions to murderous terrorists and their political frontmen.

"The unionist community has called out for a strong united voice and we have answered the call." The campaign is to be unveiled to the media at Larne port this morning.
It will begin with the distribution of 200,000 free newspapers across the Province. These, along with posters, have been brought by boat to Larne in a symbolic re-creation of the delivery of guns to the old Ulster Volunteer Force on the Clyde Valley in 1914. A website (www. loveulster.com) will also be launched, at which people will be invited to register support, voice their opinion and engage in debate. Organisers said the campaign will remain focused on entirely peaceful means to defend their heritage, beliefs and home within the United Kingdom. Their struggle, they added, is beginning with absolutely no input from unionist politicians who they say have so far failed them. It also does not involve paramilitaries, whose violent methods are opposed. Their plan is to embark on a long protest, building momentum through various events and activities. The venture has been established by victims' groups from throughout Northern Ireland, with support from all the different branches of the Loyal Orders and some Church figures.

Plans were hatched at secret meetings with the support of the editorial board of the Shankill Mirror which has produced the newspaper and plans further Province-wide publications. In keeping with the intention to make the campaign people-led, it will be launched by faces mainly unknown to the public.
William Wilkinson, the chief researcher for victims' group Families Acting for Innocent Relatives (FAIR), will be a main media spokesman. Also at today's launch will be Ashley Graham and her sister Manya Dickinson, the daughters of construction magnate Kenny Graham, a Kilkeel man murdered by the IRA in 1990. They will be joined by Orange Order Grand Master Robert Saulters, while former Presbyterian Moderator the Rev Dr David McCaughey is also offering support. [email protected]
EDITORIAL
Concessions Provoke An Inevitable Response
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/story/22323

Monday 29th August 2005
Political trends over the summer emanating from Prime Minister Tony Blair's willingness to facilitate the Sinn Fein-IRA demand list has caused serious concern within the unionist majority in the Province. The Government's outrageous raft of side deals with the Irish republican movement has created a political instability which significantly reduces the prospects of achieving a devolved power-sharing administration.
The unionist community has been treated abominably by its own Government and there is now a strong feeling in pro-Union circles that a determined push is on to achieve a united Ireland, coming not just from republicans. The machinations of Downing Street in London, against the democraticallyexpressed wishes of the greater number of people in this part of the UK, are placing enormous strains on a political process, which, at the signing of the Belfast Agreement in 1998, laid much emphasis on the concept of consent.

It is not surprising, therefore, that a campaign is being launched to co-ordinate unionists in opposition to a united Ireland and the "crisis point" which many people believe has been reached for the Union. The Love Ulster campaign, which will be entirely of peaceful intent, is so far being driven from outside the main unionist parties and is harnessed towards enlisting the support of the wider unionist populace.
Organisers are largely drawn from victims' groups throughout Northern Ireland and there is an input from the loyal orders and clergy within the Protestant churches. To be really effective within the corridors of power at Westminster and at a local level the campaign will require the full endorsement of the elected politicians, and the policies must be such as to avoid the disunity which was so apparent in unionism over recent years. Sensibly, the campaign will avoid having any truck with the loyalist paramilitaries whose violent and criminal activities have sullied the proud name of Ulster loyalism. With the aim focused on democraticallyand resolutely defending our place in the United Kingdom it should be a campaign enlisting support of all who value their British citizenship.
Marching Finale The main loyal order marching season ended on Saturday with tens of thousands of people turning out to watch the Royal Black Institution parades at the six main demonstrations.
The estimated 30,000 marchers provided a cultural and musical spectacle with dignity, decorum and colour. Unfortunately, RBP marchers and bandsmen in Castlederg faced an " unprovoked" attack from republicans on a homeward parade on Saturday night and several people were injured, including two senior members of the local preceptory. The incident was the only one to mar the traditional Last Saturday parades, which are a significant feature of the cultural canopy in our Province.
Newsletter
29th August 2005

Proving pen mightier than the sword

THE Love Ulster Campaign's inaugural statement of intent explained that its organisers felt compelled to act to make Protestant and unionist voices heard and to counteract what it feels has been a long-term republican propaganda initiative to demonise and demoralise those voices.

In the statement, one of the campaign's spokesmen, William Wilkinson, said: "Over the past decade the IRA's war against the Protestant community has changed. It has not ended, just evolved.

"Political appeasement has allowed the membership and supporters of Sinn Fein/IRA to legitimise themselves, and as they could not win the war they are intent on winning the peace.

"The new weapon in the Sinn Fein/IRA war is the written word, with propaganda now being used to victimise our people as republicans desperately try to rewrite history.

"For too long our community has lacked the means to defend itself on this new battlefield, where the pen is mightier than the sword. We have lacked an effective voice which will unite and fight for the rights of our people.

"For too long republicans and nationalists have dominated the media, and we have been portrayed around the world through the eyes of our enemies.

"Just as the Irish government gave republicans the arms to attack our community at the start of the Troubles, now we see the British Government giving them the weapons to attack our people again."
Mr Wilkinson said "we must now take action and clarify the historical truth of events in Northern Ireland", a clear reference to what the campaign believes has been republicanism's success in portraying itself as the victim and the IRA as "humanitarian freedom fighters".

Campaign newspapers, a website and other ventures will be directed at spreading the stories of victims and of the reality of both violent and militant peace time republicanism.

Mr Wilkinson also said the campaign had a message for unionist politicians.

He explained: "Unionism must not support a political process where it is not free to negotiate all matters that impact on our people. We will no longer accept the scraps from the negotiating table. We will dine at a table, at a time and from a menu of our choosing.

"Before allowing themselves to become further enmeshed in powerless negotiating with terrorists and a Government that wants to rid itself of what Peter Hain and Tony Blair have referred to as the 'Irish problem', we call upon our politicians to unite and listen to the views and the wishes of their own people."

Mr Wilkinson added that "their performance to date is quite simply unacceptable", but added that it is believed the door has not been closed to future political support and cooperation.

"We will unite different stands of opinion from within our community to develop a strategic response and a democratic alternative to the current sickening process of appeasement in the face of fear," he said.

"Our aim is to eventually facilitate and promote a democratic, alternative model of Government, based on justice, equality and security for all."
Newsletter
29th August 2005

Launch reflects early campaign
THE unveiling of the Love Ulster campaign in Larne is symbolic, making reference to aprevious campaign by
Ulster Protestants to resist Home Rule almost 100 years ago.

On this occasion newspapers have been brought by boat to the ferry port, as the written word will
be the weapon of the new and peaceful campaign.

But on April 24, 1914, when the SS Clyde Valley docked at Larne, guns were the consignment as
the 80,000-strong Ulster Volunteer Force led by Sir Edward Carson pledged to resist Home Rule
by whatever means necessary.

The Clyde Valley, a collier, landed the guns and ammunition at Larne from where they distributed them to other
ports and then throughout the Province.

The gun-running coup was organised by former British Army officer and Boer war veteran Fred Crawford.

The weapons, which were bought in Hamburg, were first loaded on the 480ton SS Fanny under the cargo description
of "zinc plate" before being transferred to the SS Clyde Valley at sea.

At the time, civil war looked inevitable, but the advent of World War One brought to a halt
plans to enact the Home Rule Bill and averted violent action.

A Love Ulster Campaign spokesman said: "Just as our forefathers faced dark days, encircled by enemies, they put their
faith in God and determined to take resolute action. They united and took a stand against the government policy of that
day, which was destined to destroy them.

"In the face of such opposition, they acquired the means of their defence and on April 24, 1914 at Larne, the Clyde Valley landed its cargo.

"As we have said, the struggle for freedom continues today, the only difference being the type of weapon needed as today, thankfully, the pen is mightier than the sword.

"Reflecting our historic spirit of self-defence, we have landed at Larne the newspaper which shall open the debate on
what really went on during the Troubles, and given a voice to those who really deserve it - the victims, not the Irish terrorists
who created them."

The Love Ulster campaign is to travel to Dublin city on Saturday 25th February 2006 to hold a rally and march down O'Connell Street with the Orange Order and many flute bands. It will be the highlight of Victims of Nationalist Republican violence against the Loyal people of Northern Ireland.

[Admin-SI]

No there will be no Orange regalia.  It is not an Orange parade.  It is victims groups rally with Orangemen in attendance as individuals.  They will be holding a political rally, addressed by UUP and DUP politicians and the victims groups will be meeting Justice Minister McDowell in Dublin.  Th Love Ulster rallies are also planned for London, Brussels and Washington.

[clash]

The Love Ulster campaign is to travel to Dublin city on Saturday 25th February 2006 to hold a rally and march down O'Connell Street with the Orange Order and many flute bands. It will be the highlight of Victims of Nationalist Republican violence against the Loyal people of Northern Ireland.

1. The naming Nationalist and Republican are used specifically to seperate one from the other. Republican supports the same ideals as a nationalist except they used to not be objectionate to using force. Nationalists don't advocate violence.

2. I'd check Mr Frazers (The organisers) background before i'd put my support to something like this if i were you.

3. Not that i object but why march in Dublin ? a Foreign country ? I mean the LoveUlster parade tried to march in Belast and the PSNI (Police) denied them, now they're trying to March in Dublin ... why again ?

I can only assume from the posts on the LoveUlster site that they want to cause trouble. What they don't realise is that Dublin isn't Belfast or Derry.

Theres Orange Order parades every year in the Republic of Ireland without any problem, locals go out to watch them. (no not me).

The fact of the matter is no one in Dublin will care if they march, the only people who will care are people who make it their business to object and be there, more then likely Republicans from the North.

[Kilsally]

No Love Ulster marched in Belfast no problem adn in London with plans for Washington and Brussels.  But seemingly they do not have the same rights in dublin..to hold a political rally outside the Dublin Parliament...instead protestors supposedly from Republican Sinn Fein people rioted, attacked the Irish police, attacked newspaper reporters, vandalised and looted shops including the Ulster bank and the Progressive Democratcs offices and shouted "huns go home" and "your not Irish go home" and "up the ra, IRA"

[Irish_gallowglass]

No Love Ulster marched in Belfast no problem adn in London with plans for Washington and Brussels.  But seemingly they do not have the same rights in dublin..to hold a political rally outside the Dublin Parliament...instead protestors supposedly from Republican Sinn Fein people rioted, attacked the Irish police, attacked newspaper reporters, vandalised and looted shops including the Ulster bank and the Progressive Democratcs offices and shouted "huns go home" and "your not Irish go home" and "up the ra, IRA"

Sorry much of what you said was incorrect. Both the gardai and BBC reported that the protest was unaffiliated with any political group. Also Provosional Sinn Fein and every other nationalist party, while they thought the possibility of carrying pics of Robert McConnell was callous, did not oppose the march and called the rioting "disgraceful" Thats a quote from Adams himself.

Also much of the protest was peaceful. Many witnesses blame the gardai for heating up an already hot sitaution.

[Kilsally]

There was no picture of Robert MCConnell.  His relatives were not involved in the rally.  And the people that brought it up as an excuse to oppose the rally is hypocritical as you often find them stating that their should not be a "heirachy of victims".

[Irish_gallowglass]

There was no picture of Robert MCConnell.  His relatives were not involved in the rally.  And the people that brought it up as an excuse to oppose the rally is hypocritical as you often find them stating that their should not be a "heirachy of victims".

Why did Willie Frazer say to the press that he would not oppose anyone carrying Robert McConnell's picture because he wasn't opposed to it himself?

Did the march plan to stop by the place that loyalist paras killed over 30 innocents in Dublin? Did they plan on honoring the dead who were killed by loyalist paras?

[Kilsally]

Was Robert McConnell a victim or was he not?
I believe they were to stop playing music at a certain place, presumably where you speak of, as a remoark of respect....or perhaps it was the war memorial.  Still whats your point?  The rally was about raising the protestors concerns on the neglect of Northern victims whilst the perpetrators are given concession after concession (Loyalist and Republican terrorist murders released from jail etc)

[Irish_gallowglass]

Was Robert McConnell a victim or was he not?
I believe they were to stop playing music at a certain place, presumably where you speak of, as a remoark of respect....or perhaps it was the war memorial.  Still whats your point?  The rally was about raising the protestors concerns on the neglect of Northern victims whilst the perpetrators are given concession after concession (Loyalist and Republican terrorist murders released from jail etc)

Robert McConnell was a murderer. Plain and simple. And the playing of the music is not the point. The point is that the riot was not political, it was incited by a heavy handed Gardai prescence and very simply was condemned by every major nationalist or republican party.

[Kilsally]

So are you saying then that there IS a heirachy of victims?  That the family of Robert McConnell is worth less than others?  I am not defending his actions prior to his murder by the IRA whatever they were (which is highly disputed).

[Irish_gallowglass]

So are you saying then that there IS a heirachy of victims?  That the family of Robert McConnell is worth less than others?  I am not defending his actions prior to his murder by the IRA whatever they were (which is highly disputed).

Would you consider Seamus Costello a victim of the Troubles? Or maybe Volunteer Hugh Ferguson? or maybe Gino Gallagher? Highly unlikely. Therefore you cannot claim that the death of a paramilitary is in fact a victim.

Victim
vic·tim    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (vktm)
n.

An innocent person who is harmed by a group, person or event.

Ok so we can see here that a paramilitary would not fall under the definition of victim. I may share sympathy with the family but my sympathy can only go so far.

[Kilsally]

Well first he was never convicted of anything nor has anything been proven.  I am not saying either way whether he was innocent or not.  I do not know.  All I know was that he was killed by the IRA.  That is a victim and his relatives are victims.

What defines a victim in NI?

This week's appointment of Bertha McDougall as Northern Ireland's Interim Victims' Commissioner has raised an old debate about exactly who is a victim.

Should the family of a paramilitary killed in the course of carrying out an attack receive the same recognition as the loved ones of either a civilian caught up in an act of carnage or a member of the security forces?

The new Victims' Commissioner, Bertha McDougall, has promised fairness
How should the commissioner balance her handling of victims of terrorism with those whose nearest and dearest have been killed by state forces?

These concerns were central to the reaction from different victims' campaigners to the appointment of Mrs McDougall, the widow of an RUC reservist murdered by the INLA.

Jim McCabe, whose wife Norah was killed by a plastic bullet in 1981, expressed his doubts about how even-handed the new commissioner could be.

He told the BBC that he believed Mrs McDougall's judgements would be "tempered unavoidably because she is a victim".


"I believe someone should have been chosen with no history of that kind," he said.

Janet Hunter's brother, Joseph McIlwaine, was a UDR soldier murdered 18 years ago by the IRA.

She had not met Bertha McDougall before attending this week's announcement, but the new commissioner made a good initial impression and Mrs Hunter hopes she will treat all victims fairly.

However, Mrs Hunter draws the line on who she regards as a victim.

"To be honest it shouldn't be a perpetrator", she argues, "someone who has taken a life."

Having said that, she acknowledges that some bereaved families might not have known what their relatives were involved in - in those cases she regards them as victims.

This of course leads to the question of who a perpetrator is.

The families of the IRA members killed at Loughgall in 1987 regard the SAS soldiers who killed them as "perpetrators".

The British army would reject this, arguing that they were legally authorised to use lethal force against the IRA gang attacking the local police station.

The DUP, who were involved behind the scenes in the run-up to Mrs McDougall's appointment, do not accept that all casualties of the Troubles are equal.

The Upper Bann MP David Simpson says: "There should be no question of any recognition being given to those who set out to slaughter their neighbours, only to run into the security forces.

"Any attempt to include gangsters, bombers and cold-blooded murderers will only turn this announcement into yet another opportunity tossed aside by government."

Mrs McDougall inevitably faced questions on this score when she met reporters shortly after her appointment.

She neatly turned them away, telling us: "There is a definition of victims within government documents already there. It is not at this stage for me to reassess that."

So what is the government definition?

A document entitled "Reshape, Rebuild, Achieve" available from the Victims Unit within the Office of the First and Deputy First Minister, defines a victim as "the surviving physically and psychologically injured of violent, conflict-related incidents and those close relatives or partners who care for them, along with the close relatives or partners who mourn their dead".

It's a bit of a mouthful, but on the face of it, this definition makes no distinction between IRA, RUC, UVF and UDR "victims".

So does a woman widely regarded as the DUP's choice for the job accept a definition which seems at odds with what David Simpson and Peter Robinson have recently said about victims?

For now, that seems to be the case, although Mrs McDougall also added: "What may happen as I talk with victims' groups, there may come a stage whenever we make recommendations to the department.


"But I wouldn't be able to comment on that now."

If Mrs McDougall tries to change the catch-all definition she'll please the DUP, but risk alienating the government who appointed her and nationalists who are already sceptical about her.

This should be an interesting topic for any future Victims and Survivors' Forum to debate.

[Irish_gallowglass]

Well first he was never convicted of anything nor has anything been proven.  I am not saying either way whether he was innocent or not.  I do not know.  All I know was that he was killed by the IRA.  That is a victim and his relatives are victims.

What defines a victim in NI?

This week's appointment of Bertha McDougall as Northern Ireland's Interim Victims' Commissioner has raised an old debate about exactly who is a victim.

Should the family of a paramilitary killed in the course of carrying out an attack receive the same recognition as the loved ones of either a civilian caught up in an act of carnage or a member of the security forces?

The new Victims' Commissioner, Bertha McDougall, has promised fairness
How should the commissioner balance her handling of victims of terrorism with those whose nearest and dearest have been killed by state forces?

These concerns were central to the reaction from different victims' campaigners to the appointment of Mrs McDougall, the widow of an RUC reservist murdered by the INLA.

Jim McCabe, whose wife Norah was killed by a plastic bullet in 1981, expressed his doubts about how even-handed the new commissioner could be.

He told the BBC that he believed Mrs McDougall's judgements would be "tempered unavoidably because she is a victim".
"I believe someone should have been chosen with no history of that kind," he said.

Janet Hunter's brother, Joseph McIlwaine, was a UDR soldier murdered 18 years ago by the IRA.

She had not met Bertha McDougall before attending this week's announcement, but the new commissioner made a good initial impression and Mrs Hunter hopes she will treat all victims fairly.

However, Mrs Hunter draws the line on who she regards as a victim.

"To be honest it shouldn't be a perpetrator", she argues, "someone who has taken a life."

Having said that, she acknowledges that some bereaved families might not have known what their relatives were involved in - in those cases she regards them as victims.

This of course leads to the question of who a perpetrator is.

The families of the IRA members killed at Loughgall in 1987 regard the SAS soldiers who killed them as "perpetrators".

The British army would reject this, arguing that they were legally authorised to use lethal force against the IRA gang attacking the local police station.

The DUP, who were involved behind the scenes in the run-up to Mrs McDougall's appointment, do not accept that all casualties of the Troubles are equal.

The Upper Bann MP David Simpson says: "There should be no question of any recognition being given to those who set out to slaughter their neighbours, only to run into the security forces.

"Any attempt to include gangsters, bombers and cold-blooded murderers will only turn this announcement into yet another opportunity tossed aside by government."

Mrs McDougall inevitably faced questions on this score when she met reporters shortly after her appointment.

She neatly turned them away, telling us: "There is a definition of victims within government documents already there. It is not at this stage for me to reassess that."

So what is the government definition?

A document entitled "Reshape, Rebuild, Achieve" available from the Victims Unit within the Office of the First and Deputy First Minister, defines a victim as "the surviving physically and psychologically injured of violent, conflict-related incidents and those close relatives or partners who care for them, along with the close relatives or partners who mourn their dead".

It's a bit of a mouthful, but on the face of it, this definition makes no distinction between IRA, RUC, UVF and UDR "victims".

So does a woman widely regarded as the DUP's choice for the job accept a definition which seems at odds with what David Simpson and Peter Robinson have recently said about victims?

For now, that seems to be the case, although Mrs McDougall also added: "What may happen as I talk with victims' groups, there may come a stage whenever we make recommendations to the department.
"But I wouldn't be able to comment on that now."

If Mrs McDougall tries to change the catch-all definition she'll please the DUP, but risk alienating the government who appointed her and nationalists who are already sceptical about her.

This should be an interesting topic for any future Victims and Survivors' Forum to debate.

Ok so because it wasn't proven in a court of law then Gerry Adams was never a chief of staff for th RA, McGuiness was never a volunteer and Bobby Sands was never in the IRA. Come on lets get real for a second. It doesn't have to be proven in a court to be true.

"More prominent still was UDR corporal Robert McConnell , one of the Dublin Monaghan bombers and a well known member of 8 platoon UDR based in Newtonhamilton . McConnell was a senior local Orange man and a prominent member and worker at St Johns Church of Ireland in Newtonhamilton . A fine upstanding member of the local protestant community when not prowling the roads as a prolific serial killer and mass murderer . Along with 2 local policemen and another UDR man he led the attack on the Reavey home , the massacre at Donnellys in silverbridge as well as planting another carbomb accross the border in Castleblayney. That bomb killed a local man and injured 17 others . Not long after this McConnell was tracked down by the IRA to his farmhouse in Tullyvallen and executed . ( the earlier republican massacre at Tullyvallen Orange hall was aimed at wiping out him and his associates however McConnell was unfortunately not present when his brethren were attacked . He was actually a member of the nearby Cladybeg lodge). McConnell was directly responsible for the murders of dozens of civilians both sides of the border . His funeral was attended by dignataries such as NIO officials representing the Secretary of State Merlyn Rees , the UDRs overall commander Brigadier Mervyn McCord and its colonel commandant and now army General Sir John Anderson ."

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=73561

Anyways its regardless. One cannot say that a terrorist killed by terrorists are victims. Victims of what? Their own violence? Hatred? Barbaritiy? Again I may sympathize with their family on the loss of a family member, but I have the same amount of sympahty for an executed killer or a murderer killed by rival gang. Sorry there simply is no possibility.

[Admin-SI]

Well thats not the SF stance.  However I`m not going into Robert McConnell as I dont really know enough about it but for Indymedia to state he was a bomber seems strange when NO ONE has ever been charged let alone convicted.  Yet we know the UVF claimed responsibility for it.  We Know what Gerry Adams is without a conviction because of his internment, his pictures standing with masked gunmen and because of US, Irish and British security info fingering him as a member of the IRA ruling council.

Perhaps there is similar info on this guy but because he is less well known then the info is less well known.

[Irish_gallowglass]

Well thats not the SF stance.  However I`m not going into Robert McConnell as I dont really know enough about it but for Indymedia to state he was a bomber seems strange when NO ONE has ever been charged let alone convicted.  Yet we know the UVF claimed responsibility for it.  We Know what Gerry Adams is without a conviction because of his internment, his pictures standing with masked gunmen and because of US, Irish and British security info fingering him as a member of the IRA ruling council.

Perhaps there is similar info on this guy but because he is less well known then the info is less well known.

Many in the republican/nationalist movement say that Gerry Adams was never in the IRA and that the British government or the loyalist community can't prove it. I was merely using an example that it does not have to be proven in court to be true. One does not have to be convicted in a court of law or be accused of something to prove he did it.

I find it interesting that when it comes to calling IRA terrorists everyone jumps in enthusiastically, but when the time comes to call the UVF and their members for what they are and were I find it interesting that there is a lot of rationalisation.

Anyways this is all stuff on the side. The fact remains that calling a terrorist a victim is ridiculous. Its like calling al-Qaida, HAMAS, or the Black and Tans who were killed victims. Lets get real for a second. Its good to kill terrorists on one side but on the other they are victims?

Edited by Irish_gallowglass, 27 March 2006 - 10:14 PM.